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Post by JamieGracie on Mar 24, 2006 15:01:12 GMT
The attraction of most music for the bagpipe is obvious, and in our case can be categorised into marches, reels, laments and so forth. It is the same with other forms of music in as much as you have fast, slow or dance tunes, whether its played by a fiddle, a piano or an electric guitar.
Even if you don’t like Ceol Beag (spelling?) you could explain that you didn’t like the sound, or the pace, or the melody.
Piobaireachd however has me confused. I want to like it, there definitely seems to be something there but defining what it is I like about that musical style I am finding elusive. The reason for this is the apparent lack of any melody in the tunes.
Every piece of music, from traditional to modern pop music has one thing in common, and that is a melody running through it of some sort. However Piobaireachd seems to be almost entirely divorced from melody, to such a degree that I wonder if it really is music?
I know that much isn’t known for sure about the origins of it, and I understand there’s is even a question about how the ancient tunes have been interpreted, so is it possible that these so called Piobaireachd were nothing more that complicated movement exercises to improve a pipers skill?
Or is it possible that it is closer to language than music? Piobaireachd definitely seems to be…saying something.
I’ve been listening to a good album of both normal and Piobaireachd music recently called the Northern Meeting. Its interesting to note that the compositions of reels/marches and so forth get far more enthusiastic applause than the polite ripple that comes at the end of a long Piobaireachd.
So I wonder what really is the value of Piobaireachd?
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tcheuchterloon
STEAMIN'
Tha f?ram math fh?in, chan eil fhios agam far am faighte ?ite na b' fhe?rr.
Posts: 193
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Post by tcheuchterloon on Mar 24, 2006 15:23:52 GMT
When I play a piobaireachd, I get a nice sense of depth from it. If I do it well, I get a sense of achievement that I don't from céol beag. You certainly hear the chanter notes float against the drones more, and with no beat tempo, there's a good degree of expression available. I have to disagree with you in that I think there's a lot of melody in piobaireachd, Earl of Seaforths Salute, Bells of Perth, Lament of the Old Sword, MacCrimmon's Sweetheart, Glengarry's Lament are all very melodious to my ears, and I could name many others. I don't know if there's a ligusistic connection, but I certainly feel that emotionally it has far more in common with Gaelic than English. Not everyone likes it, some prefer it above all other forms of music. If some people like it, even a moderate amount, then surely that's enough to give it a value?
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Post by FINN on Mar 25, 2006 0:44:57 GMT
"However Piobaireachd seems to be almost entirely divorced from melody, to such a degree that I wonder if it really is music?" --Well, look at this way: around the 1700's some British General began putting pipe music on paper, around this time fiddle music(Ceol Beag) began becoming popular to play on the pipes. Before this time pipers played mainly Ceol Mor, or piobs. So in essence, for pipers, melody divorced it's self from Piobaireachd. (side note)Before sheet music, pipe music was taught and learned from an oral instruction called canntaireachd, its become an art form for people who can sing it, very similar to piobaireachd. listen to lady doyles salute in canntaireachd: www.piperanddrummer.com/features/donaldson/2005/ladydoylessalute.mp3 When listening to a piob don't "listen" to it, but turn the volume up (or if live don't bother), sit back, shut you eyes, and just let it play. If your not resisting it and thinking, "i hate piobs, this is crap!". then you should slowly become engulfed into the tune. for lack of a better word, it puts you into a 'trance'. If your questioning what music is, then look into John Cage's work "Four Minutes, Thirty-Three Seconds" (or: 4' 33") . you can hear it here: hypertextbook.com/eworld/fourthirtythree.shtml. read up on it if you don't get it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Minutes_Thirty_Three_SecondsA good reason why you don't hear a huge roar from the crowd after the piob is played b/c they were all "out of it" during that time, and the tunes sudden ending is a shock to them. Its hard to capture a piob on a recording, to fully understand its power you have to hear a good player in real life. It becomes allot more powerful that way. "Every piece of music, from traditional to modern pop music has one thing in common, and that is a melody running through it of some sort." --- so to you anything with out a beat is not music? (You know, there is a melody in piobaireachd, just no beat) have you then ever considered to look past common western music and into Aborigine music, middle eastern, western African music. If you think that sound without a beat isn't music, then try taking a music theory class. From the looks of it you don't have a good idea of what music really is. Do you think when man started making music he spat out a quick slip jig or something? Ever wondered why music was so attached to religion? from modern catholics to native american indians, they all used it. Music dose something to your mind, altering your current state, weather that be a short pop tune that heightens your mood, or a slow mournful piobaireachd that removes all other thoughts and goings-on except for the music. you wonder if a Piobaireachd is worth anything, but on the other spectrum allot of pipers consider it to be the ultimate music. So, its worth nothing to you, and probably never will, but it's value lyes with those who can play it and can understand it, and those who have felt its moving power.
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Post by rick on Mar 26, 2006 2:55:49 GMT
Absolutly - I had the same confusion until I heard it played live - non competition, by a great player. Completely enthralled me.
I still hear a variation now and then that I don't care for, but I like the ground in all that I have heard.
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Post by JamieGracie on Mar 27, 2006 13:31:18 GMT
Chill Finn
I was asking a question, rather than presenting an opinion.
Since you defend the Big Music so passionately I’ll go listen again with an open mind.
I’m not sure where you made the connection between melody and music with a beat however….
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Post by FINN on Mar 27, 2006 23:42:18 GMT
I do apologize, i should be more open minded than a traditionalist. sorry.
One of the larger reasons for keeping piobaireachds alive is keeping in touch with the root of where piping began, with allot of other instruments they have lost their roots and have forgotten them. there are groups of people in the piping community who strive to save ours. Also their is a different art to playing ceol mor than their is to ceol beag, keeping it musicale without a beat takes a different talents and skills than playing a reel. Some folks in the piping community do hate ceol mor, and i don't blame them, they can be tiresome and boring if you don't have time to sit back and listen, or if you don't want to spend 15 minuets playing the d*mn thing. the ground of a piobaireachd dose tend to be the most musicale but is also the shortest, the rest is a trial of endurance for the play and a gentle lulling to the listener.
but i do understand where your coming from; i apologize, i should be more understanding in topics like this
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Post by malgremor on Mar 31, 2006 5:17:23 GMT
We've lost a lot of content in piobaireachd in the last 2 centuries. Canntaireachd was at one time an advanced system of translating vocal messages into music which could be heard over long distances & understood by the listener, much as the talking drums of Africa. Before the British Army turned it into a marching instrument, this is the way it was used in warfare, to convey tactical information & orders over the battlefield. However, as we all know, our instrument is not merely an instrument of war, but a high artform. This is just one of it's many facets. While canntaireachd is still known & used by some, the fact that most pipers don't speak Gaelic today & also the fact that the MacCrimmons took many secrets to the grave with them, has robbed our instrument of it's ability to convey precise information. I don't know of anyway to get this back...it's been forgotten too long.
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tcheuchterloon
STEAMIN'
Tha f?ram math fh?in, chan eil fhios agam far am faighte ?ite na b' fhe?rr.
Posts: 193
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Post by tcheuchterloon on Mar 31, 2006 8:17:55 GMT
Hmm, I have doubts that canntaireachd or piobaireachd was used to convey tactical information & orders, most piobs were not written about battles and those that were, they were composed long after the events. Remember, it was only 2 english officers that ever referred to the pipes as warpipes. When the GHB became part of the British army, then certain tunes were used to signal orders, we know that in July 1778 the Western Fencibles were using; (Gathering) War or Peace (Revellee) The Finger Lock (The troop) The Carles with the Breeks (Retreat) Glengarrys March (Tatoo) Mary's Praise These are basically telling you when to get up, assemble, work, disband and go to bed, similar to today. These were utilised for illiterate men who had no watches. I think you'd run into difficulty conveying more complex instruction. As for gaelic, tha gáidhlig gu leor ann air a-bhos. Tha mi ag ionnsachadh, bha e faisg air Obar Dheathain, s' toil piobaireachd, agus eachdraidh Albannach. Tha ùidh mhòr agam ann an canntaireachd cuideachd, but it doesn't neccessarily bring you any closer to the MaCrimmons.
There's too much caoch written about piobaireachd on websites nowadays, much of it taken from fiction like Sir Walter Scott, but passed off as fact. We should just enjoy the music for what it is, a very distinctive thing of beauty.
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Post by greginlondon on May 16, 2006 12:52:13 GMT
I'd have to agree with tcheuchterloon about signalling on the battlefield - I'd liked the idea, but when I played for some re-enactors some time ago they pointed out a variety of sources that made it clear that it was invariably drums that were used for signalling in the British Army. Pre- Culloden, I've not heard of significant signalling within any Scottish army, although others may know better. About Pibroch (or piobereachd if you prefer), I understood that some at least of the names matched the titles of songs (which are often non-mensurate ie not to sa strict tempo) and many believe that pibrochs were formerly played more quickly. I'm going to contradict myself now as, although I don't believe pibrochs were ever the exclusive pipe music and certainly not the "original" pipe music, when I have heard even very able players playing in the distance, dance or even marching music is not always distinctly heard, especially on windy days. Something played more slowly, with distinct, "strong" notes can carry clearly for miles. many pipes were played by and for those working in the fields - before the army co-opted them, that is. Just my twopennorth, but it seems like another way of listening to the music.
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Post by davidofgalilee on Mar 18, 2007 12:44:24 GMT
(I know this topic was last addressed some time ago)
Piobaireachd is important from several standpoints, but, music is music, and preferences are preferences, and it is fine by me for someone not to play piobaireachd. However, even if piobaireachd wasn't the "original" music of the pipes, the Highland pipes that we know today did to some extent evolve with that music form. Somewhere between the late medieval and early modern period (15/16th C. - 17/18th C.) piobaireachd came on to the scene. How much went on before that is simply not recorded.
This co-evolution was not from scratch for either the music or the instrument, obviously. But we do have a very loud droned instrument, and a music form which spectacularly highlights the effect of the notes against the drones. Even if quite a few piobaireachd were played faster than today (I agree with this), there are many more long-ish held notes than in the small music, even slow airs. A well-tuned pipe, after maybe half an hour of playing, can make the hairs on the back of the neck stand up--if you are hearing it live, that is.
Many of us hear piobaireachd either on CDs, or one after the other in a competitive setting. Neither is optimal. All I can say is hear it someday if you can in a great hall (Stirling Castle is perfect) or even in an acoustic auditorium. The well-set scale againts the humming drones tells the story of why piobaireachd is king on the pipes. Alas, the right setting is hard to come by these days.
Yet for different reasons, the instrument is also exceptional for reel playing, which was very popular among even piobaireachd players at one time. Joseph MacDonal's 1760s work Compleat Theory includes references to reel and jig playing.
I rather think that many piobaireachd are devoid of melody because of the imprecise notation of the Piobaireachd Society. I teach out of Roderick Ross's Bineas is Borreraig, in which the tunes are written out as played, with accurate note values. Thus, no time signatures or bar lines.
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