brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 2:09:45 GMT
Ok...still trying to learn I am an engineer by trade...so my approach to learning things is a bit odd i think versus how a true artist type person might learn, I think...for example I picture an artist type person who wants to learn the bagpipes to simply pick up a chanter and start playing...but me, I have to know what everything is first...I have this HUGE need to be able to write down the formulas...i.e. the fingerings in this case... So, I am going through every book I can get my hands on, spedning hundreds of dollars to purchase a lot of books to find what is written about the fingerings...John Cairns books for example are a god send for this... My plan is to create several windows fonts with the fingerings contained within them showing the note or embelishment symbols on the staff and the fingerings below, and then to create a visual basic for applications program that will allow the user to re-write (not re-create, but to copy) actual songs showing the fingerings below the staff...I want to do this so that I can re-write for example a simple scale showing the fingerings (which holes are open and which are closed), or simple excersises for all kinds of embelishments, and even full songs eventually once I learn the fingerings better...the program BagpipePlayer does something very similar to this but it plays the notes while I want to show the fingerings... Anyway...after getting many of the fingerings drawn up I noticed that some look exactly the same...So up pops my engineering side saying "good lord - inconsistencies"... So, over the next few days/weeks I am likley to have a few questions for you long time pipers...hopefully you can help me to clear some of the inconsistencies I run into and or mistakes in understanding on my part... How can I insert a picture on these boards? It would make this explination easier and I have seen others do it... One thing I noticed in learning fingerings was that a "high A throw" and the "doubling on high A" look exactly the same when written on a staff...both have a joined 2-gracenote note (A and G) symbol followed by an A melody note... My question is, when learning new songs from paper, and I see this graphic symbol described above, how do I know which one to play ("high a throw" or " doubling on high a")? Because the "high A throw" has a different fingering than the "doubling on high A"... Thanks in advance for your help!!
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pipermark84
BLITZED
Northern Monster
Big Jizz fae the Rigs
Posts: 125
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Post by pipermark84 on Feb 27, 2007 11:43:37 GMT
Hi there, I may be completely wrong here, in which case I'll learn something new...
I'm sure the only differnce between the two is the name - they should be played the same way. Once you get past F (i.e. High G and High A), you play a doubling by striking the below note. A high G doubling is played by sounding G, tapping the F note back to G. The same goes for a high A doubling. I think they're referred to as half doublings (one gracenote instead of two), as full doublings with two separate gracenotes can only be played as far as F.
I just re-read your post and you mention different fingerings for the two - can you describe these?
Hope this is of some help & not a load of random wittering. MJ
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pipermark84
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Northern Monster
Big Jizz fae the Rigs
Posts: 125
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Post by pipermark84 on Feb 27, 2007 11:45:23 GMT
p.s. I think they may be reffered to has throw on high A/G because of the similarity to a throw on D, where the note is sounded & the below note is struck once.
MJ
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 12:07:34 GMT
My delima stems actually from looking at the help file in the program "bagpipeplayer" which shows the "doubling on high A", but it of course does not show the fingering, bagpipeplayer does not show the "high A throw"...while Cairns books shows a "high A throw" but does not show anything about a "doubling on high A"...
So I am inclined to think that they should be played the same no matter what you call it...and I disagreeumption would be to use the fingering Cairns defines in his books...
Make sense?
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 12:11:16 GMT
"and I disagreeumption would be to use the fingering Cairns defines in his books..."
should read...
"and I disagreeumption would be to use the fingering Cairns defines in his books..."
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 12:13:07 GMT
Wow...cant seem to edit my posts nor copy test in...
...anyway, I meant to say that I disagreeumption, given the above, would be to use Cairns fingering whenever I see a "high A throw" symbol...
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pipermark84
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Northern Monster
Big Jizz fae the Rigs
Posts: 125
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Post by pipermark84 on Feb 27, 2007 21:11:38 GMT
I'm not sure how much of that I understood but aye, whatever you see written on your music is what you should be playing. I think you've got it - if you stick to that - you could call a birl a 'bzzz note' - so long as you play it right!! Although you may sound daft when speaking to other people... Cheers min
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 21:44:28 GMT
Testing a method to insert a picture of the fingering...
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 22:03:50 GMT
Above is an example of the font I am creating...in this case its the high A throw with the fingering I learned from Cairns books... I dont show the following high A in the case above because I cant know ahead of time what length the following high A melody note will be...it could be differnt lengths in differnt songs (fingering would be the same just the duration would change for the following note not shown)... Below is how I thought a doubling on high A would be fingered:
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 27, 2007 22:08:06 GMT
In the above example the chanter holes not shown are meant to denote that no matter what note is played ahead of this embelishment only the A finger moves first and the remaining fingers stay where they were...
...and since I dont know what note might be played ahead of this embelishment from song to song I dont show the other chanter holes if only one or certain fingers are moved...
Its tough to explain without showing a bunch of examples...hopefully in a few days time I can show you all a portion of a song with all the fingerings below the staff like these small examples...
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Post by piperlady on Feb 28, 2007 5:31:27 GMT
For heaven's sake! There are only 9 notes - instead of spending time writing out fingerings, just teach your fingers to follow your brain. It's like driving - when you see a stop sign you don't dissect it into 1- a sign on a post, 2- an octagonal sign, 3- a red sign, 4- contains letters, 5- letters are s-t-o-p, 6- word is stop, 7- must cease forward motion of car, 8- etc., etc. You spent hundreds on books? That would have bought months of private lessons from a qualified instructor.
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pipermark84
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Northern Monster
Big Jizz fae the Rigs
Posts: 125
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Post by pipermark84 on Feb 28, 2007 6:42:04 GMT
I know I'm not the brightest, but I can play the pipes - without reading to in depth into your explanation, the fingering makes no sense to me. If you're doing this to satisfy your engineer's need, then fine; but I wouldn't start tutoring anyone with this method - it seems far too complicated. Piping's meant to be about having fun
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brik
TIPSY
Posts: 18
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Post by brik on Feb 28, 2007 20:47:36 GMT
For heaven's sake! There are only 9 notes - instead of spending time writing out fingerings, just teach your fingers to follow your brain. True, very true...those 9 notes though stretch into a large number of combined notes and miss-fingerings once you add the embelishments...huge... -------- "It's like driving - when you see a stop sign you don't dissect it into 1- a sign on a post, 2- an octagonal sign, 3- a red sign, 4- contains letters, 5- letters are s-t-o-p, 6- word is stop, 7- must cease forward motion of car, 8- etc., etc." Lol...yea...good analogy, I like it ...but to learn to drive I didnt jump right into a car a careen down the block either...yea, I wont kill anyone with the bagpipes (I dont think), but I dont want to miss-learn things and then have to re-learn later either...so I will take my time... -------- "You spent hundreds on books? That would have bought months of private lessons from a qualified instructor." Unfortunately, not in my area (near syracuse NY)...anyone I could find seemed to want me to join thier group/band and I just did not wish to devote the time to scheduled events as well as practice...nor leave someone in the lurch if I could not make events to help out... I would gladly pay for local in person training...
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Post by rick on Feb 28, 2007 22:36:19 GMT
As an engineer and sax player, I had some of the same approach to learning the pipes. Without an instructor, I would have gone crazy trying to understand *exactly* how things were supposed to work. I would also have learned things incorrectly. Bagpipe music is written to approximate the way the instrument is supposed to be played, but it is not exact. I had to learn to disregard some of my musical training (mostly with regard to reading music) before I could understand how to play correctly from what was written on the page. Throw in multiple naming conventions and some disagreement on how/when some embellishments are played, and it is a wonder how anyone could ever learn to play well just from reading a book.
Maybe you can expand your area of looking and find someone who can provide some instruction. You might be able to get help/reference from those who want you to join - if you explain your situation. There are also some online/phone options that would be better than books alone.
Good luck !
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Post by drunkenpiper88 on May 15, 2007 9:27:52 GMT
Right I mite be far oot here, but in simple trems the difference between the throw and doubling is: The doubling is a very quick flick with the thumb down over the high A. Ok The throw or grip is high A down to low G then a D grace note and then back to high A. Got that. So with 1 you get a slight blip(double high A) so to speak and with the other(throw on high A) you get a big deep sound. Dont read in to it too much or the fun will go right out of it just understand how to play it and be happy at that.
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